Historia Militum
Historia Militum
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How Greeks REALLY fought - Modeling Greek Combat
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In this episode we go over countless theories concerning hoplite combat, coming from scholars, reenactors, and enthusiasts. All of these grew rapidly in popularity across the last century, but most are either outdated, unlikely, or incorrect. Join us as we dive into each one, and use experiments, studies, and logic to reconstruct ancient warfare of one of the most popular history periods: Archaic Greece!
Primary sources:
Tyrtaeus, Stobaeus Anthology [on war]. Elegy and Iambus, Volume I, volume 1, Tyrtaeus, The Elegiac Poems of Tyrtaeus (tufts.edu).
Secondary sources:
-Bardunias, P. “The Mechanics of Hoplite Battle: storm of spears and press of shields” in Ancient Warfare Magazine, 2011. 60-69.
-Bardunias, P. “The Greek phalanx in context: shifting shield wall” in Ancient Warfare Magazine 11.6. 36-42.
-Browuers, J. Henchmen of Ares: warriors and warfare in Early Greece. Zutphen: Karwansaray Publishers. 2013.
-Hanson, V. D. Epameinondas, the Battle of Leuktra (371 B.C.), and the "Revolution" in Greek Battle Tactics in Classical Antiquity , Oct., 1988, Vol. 7, No. 2. 190-207.
-V. D. Hanson (ed.), Hoplites: The Classical Greek Battle Experience. New York 1991.
-Hanson, V.D. The Western Way of War: Infantry Battle in Classical Greece. New York, 1989.
-Matthew, C. A. When Push Comes to Shove: What was the Othismos of Hoplite Combat? in Historia 58, 2009, 395 - 415.
-Matthew, C. A. A Storm of Spears: Understanding the Greek Hoplite at War, Barnsley. 2012.
-Konijnendik, R. & Bardunias, P. “The face of battle at Plataiai” in The Battle of Plataiai 479 BC, Konecny, A. & Sekunda, N. (eds.), Vienna: Phoibos Verlag, 2022. 211-242.
-Krentz, P. “Hoplite Hell: How Hoplites Fought.” In Men of Bronze: Hoplite Warfare in Ancient Greece, Kagan & Viggiano G F. (eds.), Princeton: University Press, 2013. 134-56.
-Van Wees, H. The Development of the Hoplite Phalanx: Iconography and Reality in the Seventh Century, in H. van Wees (ed.), War and Violence in Ancient Greece, London, 2000. 125 - 166.
-Van Wees, H. The Homeric way of War: The Iliad and the Hoplite Phalanx (I) in Greece & Rome, 2nd Ser. Vol. 41, No.1, 1-18.
-Van Wees, H. The Homeric way of War: The Iliad and the Hoplite Phalanx (II) in Greece & Rome, 2nd Ser. Vol. 41, No.2, 131-155.
Greek Hoplites (0:00)
The Time Period (0:47)
"Othismos" (1:24)
Weight of Equipment (2:38)
Spacing within a Phalanx (3:53)
Pre-battle (8:17)
Charge (9:53)
Overhand vs Underhand (10:25)
The battle (10:51)
Combat model (14:56)
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Відео

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КОМЕНТАРІ

  • @jungi001
    @jungi001 38 хвилин тому

    This video honestly stressed me out like this was my own budged! How the fuck am I gonna afford a new tunic?!

  • @koustavdaschakladar6217
    @koustavdaschakladar6217 3 години тому

    Best historical video ever 🥰

  • @Rone-ki1hm
    @Rone-ki1hm 4 години тому

    Mfw a plebian can afford a home and a family but were struggling to pay for a place we don't even own

  • @nitrix.x69
    @nitrix.x69 7 годин тому

    How many times did they eat the things you listed

  • @abulkalam2671
    @abulkalam2671 10 годин тому

    The richest man has a feast to show status he servers many meats including door mice????

  • @bill884
    @bill884 11 годин тому

    16:37 In the city states warfare never an army running down an enemy army. It was a very shamefully act. Great Video b.t.w.!

  • @Pyjamarama11
    @Pyjamarama11 12 годин тому

    A bit too soon ..... I lost relatives at Ft Flevum

  • @danishmandi4134
    @danishmandi4134 14 годин тому

    Which game is this ?

  • @danishmandi4134
    @danishmandi4134 14 годин тому

    Game ?

  • @JeddieT
    @JeddieT 16 годин тому

    This is very informative There’s nothing more boring than watching every ancient battle on UA-cam turn into just another Hollywood brawl.

  • @snakeoo7ca
    @snakeoo7ca 17 годин тому

    11:40 that is a very interesting way to hold a spear whilst holding a shield. Huh

  • @snakeoo7ca
    @snakeoo7ca 17 годин тому

    Do Rome next, again!

    • @HistoriaMilitum
      @HistoriaMilitum 4 години тому

      The late Roman period is definitely coming up!

  • @cartomancycarmen
    @cartomancycarmen 20 годин тому

    This was really interesting ❣️

  • @mccalltrader
    @mccalltrader 20 годин тому

    No this is garbage, they fought as a unit, or died alone. Your supposition that they would allow gaps, is silly, gaps are where break throughs would occur, which allows for flanking maneuvers, and a route. A phalanx is notoriously vulnerable from the flank, which is why tactics had to change once Cavalry came into being. This is why disciplined armies won the day, they maintained their line, and opened up the enemy to a flanking maneuver Silly video, please understand that war is more than a book, and you can’t become proficient or understand it without experience.

  • @TheTariqibnziyad
    @TheTariqibnziyad 22 години тому

    Great video, i also never believed that Hoplites did push eachother, since one side can easily quickly retreat and the other will fall to the ground

  • @surgeonsergio6839
    @surgeonsergio6839 22 години тому

    How are these animations made? How can I make a video like this?

  • @josephrousseau9516
    @josephrousseau9516 День тому

    love love love your videos my man. been watching for a long time now usually over a morning coffee. tonight over a JD & Coke . keep it up you're doing an amazing job

    • @HistoriaMilitum
      @HistoriaMilitum 4 години тому

      Thank you for your interest and support! :)

  • @CubeInspector
    @CubeInspector День тому

    These historians that have never been in even a modern battle creating an entire system based off the literal interpretation of a word that only appears 3 times is on par for historians in the modern age.

  • @nobbytang
    @nobbytang День тому

    The romans knew that a battle line 8 deep is needed to balance any huge advantage the enemy had in numbers …8 deep and then pick the terrain to allow this to happen…..like the Athenians at Marathon…or Henry 5th at Agincourt…

  • @allanfifield8256
    @allanfifield8256 День тому

    Always Outstanding!

  • @HappyGM-R
    @HappyGM-R День тому

    Considering how Roman’s couldn’t watch this UA-cam channel for virtually free, we have a far better quality of life.

  • @Jarlemoore1
    @Jarlemoore1 День тому

    How did they fight the Persians at the hot gates, anyway they could.

  • @StevenSheridan31416
    @StevenSheridan31416 День тому

    I do wonder how completely this all really worked out in reality. People have different personalities, and I'm sure very many felt like misfits their whole lives but managed to avoid complete failure. I'm sure the Spartans were more authentically Spartan than the Soviet citizens were authentically communist, but I'm also sure that Xenophon doesn't tell the complete story of how it really manifested.

  • @odd-ysseusdoesstuff6347
    @odd-ysseusdoesstuff6347 День тому

    Quickly, Alfred, the tomes of lore must be filled with knowledge!

  • @joshuakokkinias3054
    @joshuakokkinias3054 День тому

    THANK YOU FOR YOU FOR USING ILLUSTRATED ART WORK FOR YOUR VIDEOS AND NOT AI. I cannot stand all the historical content out with weird and whacky ai as illustration. Big thumbs up.

  • @shorttcharles
    @shorttcharles День тому

    Be more contrarian

  • @Dragonette666
    @Dragonette666 День тому

    Ok so holding the rope on the shield. There's always going to be the guys who want to show off , or be the fastest, etc. They probably had them hold the ropes on the shield to keep someone who's got their adrenaline rushing from charging out of the formation . trying to be heroic but most likely getting killed. Once they got into range they could spread out a little bit but you wouldn't have to worry about someone running off.

  • @Masra94
    @Masra94 День тому

    2 comments: Hoplites fought in deep formations, 6+ ranks deep. It was a signature of their fighting style. Deeper formations are more durable, with less frontage. 2nd comment: Hoplite overhand spear is the opposite. In duels overhand can give you an advantage, but in formation underhand is better. Many Greek spears used sauroter, which is a heavy weight on the back end of a spear, 3 times as heavy as the spearhead. So you can hold it in front with very little sticking behind you because the point of balance makes it easy to hold it further out. Don't think of underhand as 1v1. Usually the formations would jab and it would be the person at an angle who would spear you. The most common armour was on the chest and side of the chest, as well as greaves. Which is where you can aim if you use it underarm. Underarm is also a barrier and defensive tool, as spears can interfere with the enemy getting too close and also physically bat at enemy spears, which is handy if you see someone trying to spear your friend to either side of you and you can use your spear to bat those spears away. Overarm is good for throwing, but it's not a natural way to fight with a spear for a long time. Try holding anything above your head for a long time, you won't be able to do it for very long, especially a heavy spear. Overarm it it gets knocked makes it easy to lose control of your spear and for it to pivot, which can knock someone else on the head easily. The wrist at that angle has no real resistance.

    • @paulbardunias5950
      @paulbardunias5950 День тому

      Deep ranks are a feature if Classical hoplite warfare. This video is about Archaic hoplite warfare. You will see deep ranks in the next video. Overhand spear use is far superior when in phalanx. It allows for a greater range of targets when used over the top of overlapped shields. If you use the spear as I advocate, you will have no problem both parrying enemy spears and recovering when your own spear is parried. Search for my other videos on here. The most common armor is the helmet, which is the prime overhand target. There is nothing especially tied to underhand about strikes to the shins. Overhand strikes can target from nose to toes with a dory-sized spear. We regularly strike at the legs to open up the face and vice versa.

    • @Masra94
      @Masra94 День тому

      @@paulbardunias5950 Overhand isn't a natural way to hold a spear and you don't get much extension. I get the whole throwing the spear forward technique but I don't think the majority of hoplites would have tried this kind of thing. You can easily get your spear knocked away if it just gets bumped by some other spear. Now you at best have a sharp sauroter in someone's face as your spear rotates and you try to keep control of it. You can get plenty of power and precision by just using your body with a normal, underarm grip. If you're stopped in front of another formation with underarm and you start engaging someone at a good distance away with your spear extended, he is then going to get distracted. He's going to try to defend himself. That will open him up to attacks from the side. Sharp, heavy spears can also jab shields directly and create major problems for the other guy. Shields can get knocked offline, the spear can stick into the shield and then have to be removed. If you have a good shot at someone with overarm, you're already in sword range. People in a duel will get baited by overarm. You can't afford to bait people in formation when other guys need your spear to be out in front to keep the spear wall. The main reason you don't get into close combat is because you have this long piece of wood between you and the enemy. If you're using overarm in a formation you are completely throwing away reach for basically no gain. Your main target is now the shield and face, the most heavily armoured and most protected targets and you no longer have any room to fall back if you get into trouble, because you're at sword range. The spear is not really beneficial because of the offensive capability, it's the way it lets you coordinate with everyone else to fight as a unit and to keep distance between you and the enemy. Reenactors don't care about the danger of a spear, but ancient formations which try to breach a spearwall will march forward uneven. Some guys will make it into close combat, others will fail and stay behind. The spear used extended in underarm lets you coordinate with everyone else. You can keep a certain dead zone between the formations to give you breathing room and start "working" it. You're going to target feet, legs, opening in shields, the face, the torso and stomach. Okay, you have this big impenetrable wall of overarm spears. Now you have to move forward because you're out of range. As soon as you do, the formation shatters. Some guys march forward into a hail of spear thrusts and also the physical mass of a bunch of spears extended. Some guys make it to range. Others get left behind. Maybe overarm works for you, but it's not going to work well enough when there are 3+ enemies are thrusting at you from different angles because you're isolated. Yeah, overarm was probably used, especially in dueling and skirmish scenarios, because the spear can be thrown. Look up film of the West Papu Tribal war and see how they use spears in less organized settings. ua-cam.com/video/JI4uirwxx1Y/v-deo.html I think people went into formation combat expecting to use an underarm grip and to keep some kind of distance from the enemy, to fight in a way that was natural. Most hoplites were not full time soldiers, discipline is heavily exaggerated and 1v1 combat in war was seriously glorified. Commanders were always trying to organize formations to keep them coherent but many writers in ancient Greece talk about how hoplite formations can fail. They wanted a system which was easy to implement and understand for part time soldiers. It would be good for them to stay in a single line, let alone to be tightly packed. If you're tightly packed and marched into the teeth of the enemy with everyone using an overarm grip, it's an incredibly stressful thing even for full time soldiers to get that close. Many of them would not be wearing full face helmets, many would not have greaves and others would have just caps, like the Phyringian cap style helm which provides no frontal face protection. These people are going to run away in that kind of environment.

  • @laughremixsquad
    @laughremixsquad День тому

    “Military recruiters always preferred recruits from the countryside to the city.” some things never change

  • @CapriciousStoic2
    @CapriciousStoic2 День тому

    Radu Olteanu is an ilustrator ( historical illustrations ) not a historian - but he manage produce , self fund , publish and draw all the watercolor and photoshop images and create all the text based on his vast research. He is also involved with local historian friends that have books and research papers and archeologist that are history enthusiasts. They have contributed to his personal research which he takes very serious.

  • @EdrethMaximus
    @EdrethMaximus День тому

    I can’t wait for a video about conbat during the macedonian age😍

  • @dogukan127
    @dogukan127 День тому

    The Roman videos were crazy good - glad you took on this. There is something more intimate about studying actual behaviours of soldiers with the tactics-equipment-culture of the period

  • @battlnerd2128
    @battlnerd2128 День тому

    > abs armour on thumbnail > sponsored by war thunder > claims to provide factual information really?

  • @nikoivanovski5579
    @nikoivanovski5579 День тому

    Ancient greek is like ancient USA never existed.

    • @kosmasgvl1615
      @kosmasgvl1615 День тому

      😂 delusional Bulgarian who lives in North skopje .. 100%

  • @descendantofgreeksandroman2505

    Why then there are mentions of 8/16/32 lines per phalanx? What about "ΛΟΞΗ ΦΑΛΑΓΞ"? Why Spartans had very short swords? Why doratismos excludes othismos? Obviously othismos requires a Greek phalanx in both enemies. In Anabasis Xenophon mentions even "ΟΡΘΙΟΥΣ ΛΟΧΟΥΣ" (vertical formations) leaving space bettween them verticaly, in a mountenious terrain, but against lighter enemy infantry. My conclusion is othismos and doratismos and sword stabing in a very narrow space. Naturaly the army that could not stend othismos had to abadon the battle field.

    • @paulbardunias5950
      @paulbardunias5950 2 дні тому

      This video is on the Archaic period. What you describe will become common in the Classical period.

    • @descendantofgreeksandroman2505
      @descendantofgreeksandroman2505 День тому

      @@paulbardunias5950 That is why I mention Xenophon. During the time battles went from hevy armored tight formations to light armored loose formations.

  • @jameson32
    @jameson32 2 дні тому

    God I love this shit.

  • @ScorpionCHAM
    @ScorpionCHAM 2 дні тому

    +1

  • @RossNaylor-uq4jp
    @RossNaylor-uq4jp 2 дні тому

    Imagine that army coming towards your country 😢

  • @GarfieldRex
    @GarfieldRex 2 дні тому

    Incredible the complexity of such defenses, not only locally, but the regional strategy done, they were truly advanced and sophisticated. Great video as usual, excellence is the cognomen if this channel 👌🏼

  • @duelios.
    @duelios. 2 дні тому

    Rome II footage always is the best at just, looking pretty for Classical-Antiquity themed videos

  • @antred11
    @antred11 2 дні тому

    It's "what did it look like", not "how did it look like".

  • @jonesjohnson6301
    @jonesjohnson6301 2 дні тому

    1) I am convinced you're overexaggerating the degree to which the various units would be moving in front of each other. The corners of any unit would be a natural weak point. I agree that over the entire length of the battle line the formations would not have been a perfectly straight line, but I'd be surprised if the units didn't attempt to keep their front rank at roughly the same line as the neighbouring units. 2) I feel like you're vastly overestimating people's ability for coordinated movement in masses. Anyone who's ever been at a concert knows how realistic it is for ranged units to move through the heavier formation and not clog it up. I can see them doing that at the start and under more special circumstances at the very end. I do not see them doing that while fighting is ongoing, only because temporary distance to the foe was gained. 3) The time span you chose is far too broad, and I think the conclusions you choose from one battle do not necessarily transfer to others. For example, Tyrtaeus was probably speaking in the context of the second Messenian war. Even in the first Messenian war, the Messenians were according to Pausanias fighting lighter and more disorganised than the Spartans, whereas the Spartans were keeping their ranks. In the second Messenian war, the Messenians were fighting as people who had until very recently been helots, and you'd not expect them to be as able to field and equip heavy infantry as the Spartans. I find it far more likely that the Spartans as a result needed skirmishers to protect their heavy infantry because of a prevalence of enemy slingers, and were able to have them at the front line because the Messenians likely did not have a heavy infantry to rival theirs. 4) I cannot see how the Greeks could win their victories against the Persians even with the revised numbers, if it wasn't for a tighter formation allowing them superiority in numbers on the local level during the hand to hand fighting.

    • @jonesjohnson6301
      @jonesjohnson6301 2 дні тому

      that said great video, I enjoyed it a lot and please don't take the above as negativity.

    • @paulbardunias5950
      @paulbardunias5950 2 дні тому

      #2: light troops only move through the ranks of hoplites during missile fighting at throwing range, not hand to hand fighting. The scale of the visuals could be misleading, but we stated that the lines had pulled apart or had not yet charged. #4: note that we said 72-90cm. This is what is known as close order. At 72cm the shields are overlapped. The tightest that hoplites can form and still fight is 60cm.

  • @theconsul8452
    @theconsul8452 2 дні тому

    Please do a video on how different types of cavalries were actually used in battles. We all know they had the advantage of mobility and were best flanking troops but how did the charge/skirmish actually take place on a minute-to-minute basis ? How was the communication done ? How did the troops managed to not enter a state of chaos & rampage ? What did the horses and the soldiers do after they made first contact with the enemy ? How long did the troops stay in contact (melee/ranged) with the enemy ? What would be the course of action of a cavalry commander/soldier from the start of a battle till the end of it ? [for any (specific) culture/civilization] ? There are so many questions that are not properly answered anywhere, would love to see many videos on this topic, specially for distinct cavalry types. Thank you for your efforts. Cheers!!!

  • @tannerdenny5430
    @tannerdenny5430 2 дні тому

    Reall6 great. I'm gonna be subbing

  • @pztiger4
    @pztiger4 2 дні тому

    Hadrian and his walls...

  • @zachflag6506
    @zachflag6506 2 дні тому

    I love the title-thumbnail combo. Like yeah I’m sure some did, but I can goddamn guarantee the slaves didn’t

  • @BrujoMB
    @BrujoMB 2 дні тому

    nice